On the eve of the 2025 Met Gala, designer Jerry Lorenzo and iconoclastic fashion mind Andre Walker sat down with Document to speak candidly about what it means to create, to rebel, and to show up with conviction. Moderated by Document’s style director Ronald Burton III, their conversation unspools beyond tailoring and theme into the language of legacy—spiritual, sartorial, and Black. For Lorenzo, founder of Fear of God, the event is less about spectacle than sacred intention. For Walker, it’s a supernatural kind of alignment. Together, they reflect on identity, the humility of craftsmanship, and the cultural stewardship they bring to fashion’s grandest stage.

The dialogue ventures beyond aesthetics, examining how rebellion shapes creativity, the preservation of cultural identity, and the nuanced ways blackness informs their work without defining it.

Ronald Burton III  All right friends. First, congrats. It’s gonna be a big moment. We’re excited to see it, excited to experience it. I guess we can start by just opening up with what does the Met [Gala] mean to you both, personally, and also for the industry at large?

Jerry Lorenzo I think the Met has a much larger meaning to the fashion industry than it maybe does to me personally, just because my love for clothing and fashion isn’t necessarily from the same industry standards or perspectives. I’m designing into what I feel like people want and what’s missing in the market. And it’s not necessarily driven by or judged by any validation outside of what it’s intended to be. And so I’m humbled and honored to be here, and maybe I wish I had more context of the significance, but sometimes I like just living in my ignorance of the scale of it, and just feeling convicted that I should be a part of it and that’s enough for me and show up in the best way possible. 

Andre Walker I feel the Met, as Jerry said, is a big deal for the fashion world. And I learned about the Met through André Leon Talley, and all of the press and the media around it, but once again, I didn’t think about it that much until I was invited to have two of the garments that showed in the last collection there. So I kind of feel like a bit of an outsider as well, but I understand and acknowledge completely the importance of the event. It’s like a mega, mega philanthropic enterprise for the fashion world. 

As far as being invited by Jerry, I couldn’t believe it. I was like, where is this coming from? And I was just really excited to be here, because I honestly feel like I’m the last person that I’m imagining to be going to the Met. The last time was in 2021 and there was so much red tape and the vaccination proclamations that were needed. And I said yes, all the way up until the end when I didn’t end up going. But to be here with Jerry from Fear of God. And it’s so nominal and silly in a way, because I actually believe in a heavenly Father. So Fear of God, in my eyes, was an important step for anyone to take to call their brand. And the plot thickens, because when I was reading about Jerry, furiously after having a conversation with him, I saw that he answered that question to someone before, about a book called My Utmost for His Highest. And it was so funny because my parents have been giving me that exact book for like 15 years. Like, ‘have you not read that book?’ I’m way further advanced in age than Jerry. That was just like, this is way too much. It’s too hilarious. So I feel like this, for me, is more about the supernatural and the amazing, rather than anything entirely concrete. And I’m deeply honored to be here. And I really didn’t think about what I was going to be wearing. I didn’t care, because in my mind, Fear of God invited Andre Walker. I was like, let’s go. I don’t care what we do, it’s going to be fine.

“I think being in fashion, the only thing that qualifies you is your ability to be 100% you.”

Ron: Back to that point about spirituality, I want to talk about how that influences how you design and how you interpreted that when you were coming up with all the ideas this time around, for your guests. In terms of Fear of God, they’re known for blending relaxed elegance and precise tailoring. So how did you approach this Met theme when you were designing for your guests?

Jerry: The same way. Nothing changes. I think for me, what I needed to find was the conviction around the intention of what the Gala is celebrating, and if I can align with that, based on what I know from my God-given perspective, then I know I can add to that conversation. If it was something that I felt I would have to step outside of myself to do—and I’m not saying push myself to do something new—I’m saying to communicate against a look that is outside of what Fear of God would do. And in all honesty, I feel like there are millions of different, let’s call them, quote unquote “dandies.” And I feel like there’s a perspective that I have that simply just adds to that conversation.

Ron: You’ve said before that Fear of God is less about fashion and more about language. How have subcultures shaped that language?

Jerry: I don’t know that subcultures have shaped it. I’ve talked about all the different things that I’ve been exposed to in my life to try and make that make sense. But every moment in my life has shaped the perspective of the brand. I pour everything into it, from the music my mom played at the dinner table to how she would get dressed and shop at a garage sale and still look elegant and sophisticated in the art of being able to do something like that. And I think being in fashion, the only thing that qualifies you is your ability to be 100% you. And so I just try to use 100% everything that I’ve been exposed to, everything that I’ve experienced. I think that’s what makes Fear of God, Fear of God. And so I can’t afford to leave anything outside of the mix.

Ron: You touched on this a bit, but there’s this importance of preserving culture, which you spoke about, your experience that has shaped the way you design. But Andre, shifting to you a bit and your tenure as a designer, how would you say the preservation of culture has influenced you?

Andre: It’s influenced me directly through my own work, because I work in such an insular and kind of contrarian fashion. And I guess from ages ago, I’ve never really enjoyed categorization of any kind, but I do love fashion magazines, and I love the 1930s and I am obsessed with old movies, and I love seeing how people behave throughout history, and that is culture.Then you have subcultures which can be anything from clans within the rhythm and blues genre to different clans within the more rock and roll culture and everything kind of eventually connects and expands. It expands and contracts, and depending on where it’s being visited, it always has an impact on society somehow. And that’s what’s so interesting about culture to me. It’s not like, oh, this represents hip-hop culture, so you’ve got to have this specific sneaker or a specific sweatshirt or whatever. It’s not this kind of specificity that I noticed. I noticed much more the incremental and direct contact.

So culture is a big deal. I am not necessarily someone that’s observing it so specifically, because I’m much more of a contrarian, I like to do everything the opposite of what is being done. I mean, if I’m going to out myself, that would be it. But at the same time, I do love the idea of walking down the street and seeing 14 year old kids with their parents, and they look at me and they say, “Why is he wearing dress pants with that top?” because I love wearing tuxedo pants with Birkenstocks and a ragged t-shirt or whatever. So I do believe that culture is there for everyone to pull from, and we learned that from the greats. We learned that from people like Yves Saint Laurent. Yves was all about cultural appropriation, thank God, because that kind of cultural appropriation, look at what it brought to us. When you look at Yves Saint Laurent, what do you see? You don’t only see fabric. You don’t only see different world cultures. You don’t only see artists. It’s an amalgamation of everything together. It’s like couture technique. It’s important for society to see all of these quote unquote—which is a term I do not use—”marginalized” cultures or peoples or esthetics or anything. I’m very open and democratic to the idea of culture, yet I don’t think it needs to be shrink wrapped into specificity.

Ron: Just sort of touching back, you talked about subcultures and how that influences your work. And we always see subcultures born out of necessity or rebellion. Do you think that luxury can still capture that rawness?

Andre: Only with certain types of input. It’s important. Because even if you look back into the Western history of the Charleston [house] with Duncan Grant, or Virginia Woolf, and all that pottery meets painting, handcrafty type of situation, you always end up with something that is going to influence.

Ron: For you both, are there any specific historical cultural moments in black fashion that influenced your idea of formal wear?

Andre: Yes. Like I said, I love all old movies. So when I think about King Vidor, and this is another adventure in cultural appropriation, he did a film called Hallelujah. It’s an all-black cast before Cabin in the Sky, 1927, and it’s just fantastic to see it. And in a sense, maybe what the real people who are interested in cultures do is they go and they do the field work and they jump right in the middle of this stuff. I’ve never really done that. I jump right in the middle of a magazine or the flea market or the encyclopedia, because it’s just kind of me, but you did say that these cultural things are born out of rebellion. And in a sense, I was rebelling because I wanted to go to fashion school, but my mom wouldn’t let me. It was hilarious, because I’d been drawing since I was five years old, and I’m ready to go by the time I’m 14, and I’m forced into Brooklyn Tech. And then I just stopped going to school, and I started making more and more clothes, and showed my own collection by the time I was 15. So in a sense, it is a form of rebellion. Of course, I wasn’t going to stop doing what was my hobby. So in a sense, like that kind of personal sense, rebellion can be a catalyst for the initiation and incentive to follow one’s curiosity or dream or path or hobby.

Jerry: And I think in that rebellion, your instinct to rebel against something doesn’t always have an aesthetic to it, and so it may not be something that you saw aesthetically that you said, hey, I want to create something that looks like this. It’s like my heart’s desire to not be and not live in this box that you want me to be in is the catalyst for finding what that esthetic is. And obviously, it’s something you find through the 10,000 hours as you’re working.

Andre: It’s a practice, for sure. I was trying to find some terms to update my bio today, and those neutral terms like practice, exercise, awareness. I think those are the things that bring culture to mind, not plagiarism or mimicking or cloning. I feel like culture deserves a lot more than what it’s being given. Because right now the whole world is like, F bombing, F bombing, F bombing. I’m of a certain generation where I grew up listening to all types of communication, but never before had I seen magazines like Condé Nast or big important magazines making use of these formally vulgar expletives. So that’s another great example of culture evolving, not only esthetically, but linguistically as well. So I think it’s really wild, because every conversation I have, people ask questions. Even when I first spoke with Jerry, sometimes I feel like, gosh, I don’t want to be constantly explaining stuff, you don’t want to put it in a box anyway. 

Jerry: And that’s the entire fear, right? And that’s why I called. He was one of the first calls that I made, because I had had my own questions about participating because of what appeared to be a box of a multifaceted culture of people. And he just really spoke to the responsibility of continuing to define the other facets beyond the category. What we’ve been really talking about is the category of the theme, of what we’re participating in, we’re participating in it with the understanding that the category really doesn’t have that much to do with our expression within it. We’re not looking to that in the type of way that people look into something that maybe they’re not a part of. And I think being a part of something, you see it the way you see it, and that is the correct way to see it.

“I will wear a suit jacket in every and any situation, as long as it’s not correct.”

Andre: I look forward to seeing a top hat, or whatever, blah blah. But I was really pleasantly surprised with my outfit, because it was not just elegant, it was elegant for me, because I don’t dress like that at all. I’d never wear one color head to toe, but in a sense, I felt like I was fulfilling the theme strangely enough, without it being a cliche or a character.

Jerry: Without the top hat? 

Andre: Yeah. How many times can you say top hat without actually reconsidering a top hat? Because maybe top hats are hot, but that’s the excitement. So let’s see what happens on that carpet tomorrow. I know some kids are gonna totally wreck us, not as if it’s some kind of war, but to be excitedly surprised. I hope that people really play with the idea in more ways than one. I’m very excited to see how people will address and evolve and evaluate the theme, and I’m happy to be representing the kind of rough and tumble section, because my outfit I can jump around in.

Ron:  Coming back to, again, the theme, Superfine tailoring, how do you both see tailoring as a kind of armor or sacred way of dressing, especially in the context of the black male identity?

Andre: In the completely traditional way? A suit jacket is like a pair of brogues or British Oxfords or whatever shoe you wear when you don’t want to be attacked visually by people when you’re entering a restaurant or a hotel or some kind of fancy establishment around here, voila. So I like suit jackets for that. I love tuxedo pants for that. I like all of this kind of formal wear—I love that sartorial culture of the Savile Row and British tailoring, like that is really something else. Because I don’t know the total origins of those lapels, but I do have that book ‘The History of Men’s Fashion’ or something—it always escapes me, but never when it comes to actually wearing a suit jacket. I will wear a suit jacket in every and any situation, as long as it’s not correct. I just love the idea of a suit jacket with just anything on the bottom.

Jerry: You’re talking exactly about what we’re talking about. Because if you’re asking how I’m thinking about tailoring, and we’re speaking about rebellion, I am fully through fear of God, rebelling in a way that we’ve been told that we need to look to be accepted period. Like, no, I’m not gonna put that on, because that’s what you want me to put on to go eat in that restaurant. I’m gonna look the way that I believe is sophisticated and elegant to eat where I want to eat, not in the way that you are asking me to because I spent my entire life being concerned how you think, how I look, in order for me to do what I would like to do within this space in this society. And so that all comes from rebellion. And I love a tailored jacket, like perfectly tailored. Am I wearing that to the Met perfectly tailored? No. Am I wearing that to a baseball game with some sweats? Maybe, because I like the piece for the piece. I don’t like it for what it validates…

Andre: …The validating purpose of that piece, the correctness of what that piece is for. 

Ron: In regards to that, and in terms of the language of how you design, what are you hoping that your looks embody, in terms of craftsmanship, blackness and legacy?

Jerry: My looks will always embody blackness, because I’m black. No matter who I’m dressing, it’s a part of who I am. That’s my perspective. It’s not a black perspective, but it’s a perspective that’s everything that I’ve been exposed to in my life, largely informed by my skin and how my skin informs how I’m exposed to things. And so that’s going to naturally come out in everything. But I’m just hoping to make Andre feel like the best version of Andre, on this evening. I’m hoping to make Ryan feel like the best version of Ryan, the same for Lauren and Amy and everyone else that we’re dressing. I’m hoping that I can bring a level of elegance and freedom to how they feel, that’s not uptight and tight and expected of anyone. That’s the last thing that I think anyone wants to pander into the assumption or idea of how we need to present ourselves.